I am speaking to the guys of Zeitgeist movement

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Re: I am speaking to the guys of Zeitgeist movement

Postby crzer07 on Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:37 am

wjfox2009 wrote:
Nick1984 wrote:

People will always want to elevate themselves above others, we're naturally competitive regardless of culture or quality of life.


Yes. And they'll still be able to do that - by creating art, playing games and sports, designing things, or uncovering new science, etc... rather than being motivated by greed, money and material pursuits.

You clearly don't understand the concept of a resource-based economy. Once again, I refer you to Star Trek -

Capt. Picard: This is the 24th century. Material needs no longer exist.
Ralph Offenhouse: Then what's the challenge?
Capt. Picard: The challenge, Mr. Offenhouse, is to improve yourself. To enrich yourself. Enjoy it.




hmmm... just to play devil's advocate but one may rebut by saying that humans will always want to elevate themselves above others in literally EVERYTHING... it doesn't matter what it is, it could be literally ANYTHING, yes from creating art, games/sports and science to things like, wait for it... OH even trying to compete for better standards of living!
And if a 'resource-based economy' is established there will inevitably be people who will usurp or sabatoge it just so they can be 'above' others, or as one might say 'one-upmanship'. I think this is what Nick is really trying to say.

So you see, after all even if every single wish, desire, dream and fantasy has been fulfilled there is but one that is eternal... which is the desire to 'one-up' the person beside you and be unique. Since a resource-based economy contradicts this underlying lowest common denominator of human nature (in terms of equality of high standards of living) it is at this point it will fail. This is the basis of ones gain (the person doing the one-upmanship) at the expense of the suffering (the one that has been 'one-upped')

To summarize, the root of all greed and corruption is one-upmanship. Our biological imperative is to be unique and be above others.
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Re: I am speaking to the guys of Zeitgeist movement

Postby TreeHandThing on Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:11 am

What is zeitgeist? Some kind of cult?
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Re: I am speaking to the guys of Zeitgeist movement

Postby truthiness on Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:30 am

crzer07 wrote:hmmm... just to play devil's advocate but one may rebut by saying that humans will always want to elevate themselves above others in literally EVERYTHING... it doesn't matter what it is, it could be literally ANYTHING, yes from creating art, games/sports and science to things like, wait for it... OH even trying to compete for better standards of living!
And if a 'resource-based economy' is established there will inevitably be people who will usurp or sabatoge it just so they can be 'above' others, or as one might say 'one-upmanship'. I think this is what Nick is really trying to say.

So you see, after all even if every single wish, desire, dream and fantasy has been fulfilled there is but one that is eternal... which is the desire to 'one-up' the person beside you and be unique. Since a resource-based economy contradicts this underlying lowest common denominator of human nature (in terms of equality of high standards of living) it is at this point it will fail. This is the basis of ones gain (the person doing the one-upmanship) at the expense of the suffering (the one that has been 'one-upped')

To summarize, the root of all greed and corruption is one-upmanship. Our biological imperative is to be unique and be above others.


I guess facing that rebuttal I would counter with something along the lines of "people compete for possessions because we are told (albeit not directly, but it is certainly heavily implied) from a very young age that the acquisition of things is the socially acceptable way to compete with our neighbors, so thats what most of us do". Perhaps in ancient times we may have simply clubbed each other over the head to prove our prominence, but that sort of behavior is obviously not acceptable in a civilized world. Instead, we substitute acquisition of resources and some intricate little slips of paper we call money. The solution would be to make competition over possessions socially unacceptable - disallow the concept of "private property". We would indeed continue to compete with one another, but for prestige and for honor before society at large. Not for things. As long as sabotaging the system or somehow taking more than your share is considered socially unacceptable behavior (and it'd have to be), and it is appropriately punished to the satisfaction of the general public, it would be kept in check and the system could be maintained - even when a few bad apples try to ruin the party for the rest of us.

As you say, competitiveness is a biological imperative. We all strive, whether we know it or not, to demonstrate our fitness to society at large with the ultimate goal in mind to keep our genetic line going beyond our inevitable death. As a society we need to recognize that fact, and find a way in which we can compete that won't ultimately harm the society or the planet as a whole. Again though, the trouble will be the transition. Sometime this century I really do think we'll make a transition from the current global paradigm of free market capitalism to... well... something else... This plan seems as good as any I've come across. Now, if only someone could come up with a strategy to get from here to there.
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Re: I am speaking to the guys of Zeitgeist movement

Postby Italian Ufo on Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:16 am

TreeHandThing wrote:What is zeitgeist? Some kind of cult?


it depends what is a cult to you. However a cult dosent imply that is something neceserly negative.

I would dedine Zeitgeist a movment
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Re: I am speaking to the guys of Zeitgeist movement

Postby Italian Ufo on Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:24 am

truthiness wrote:
crzer07 wrote:hmmm... just to play devil's advocate but one may rebut by saying that humans will always want to elevate themselves above others in literally EVERYTHING... it doesn't matter what it is, it could be literally ANYTHING, yes from creating art, games/sports and science to things like, wait for it... OH even trying to compete for better standards of living!
And if a 'resource-based economy' is established there will inevitably be people who will usurp or sabatoge it just so they can be 'above' others, or as one might say 'one-upmanship'. I think this is what Nick is really trying to say.

So you see, after all even if every single wish, desire, dream and fantasy has been fulfilled there is but one that is eternal... which is the desire to 'one-up' the person beside you and be unique. Since a resource-based economy contradicts this underlying lowest common denominator of human nature (in terms of equality of high standards of living) it is at this point it will fail. This is the basis of ones gain (the person doing the one-upmanship) at the expense of the suffering (the one that has been 'one-upped')

To summarize, the root of all greed and corruption is one-upmanship. Our biological imperative is to be unique and be above others.


I guess facing that rebuttal I would counter with something along the lines of "people compete for possessions because we are told (albeit not directly, but it is certainly heavily implied) from a very young age that the acquisition of things is the socially acceptable way to compete with our neighbors, so thats what most of us do". Perhaps in ancient times we may have simply clubbed each other over the head to prove our prominence, but that sort of behavior is obviously not acceptable in a civilized world. Instead, we substitute acquisition of resources and some intricate little slips of paper we call money. The solution would be to make competition over possessions socially unacceptable - disallow the concept of "private property". We would indeed continue to compete with one another, but for prestige and for honor before society at large. Not for things. As long as sabotaging the system or somehow taking more than your share is considered socially unacceptable behavior (and it'd have to be), and it is appropriately punished to the satisfaction of the general public, it would be kept in check and the system could be maintained - even when a few bad apples try to ruin the party for the rest of us.

As you say, competitiveness is a biological imperative. We all strive, whether we know it or not, to demonstrate our fitness to society at large with the ultimate goal in mind to keep our genetic line going beyond our inevitable death. As a society we need to recognize that fact, and find a way in which we can compete that won't ultimately harm the society or the planet as a whole. Again though, the trouble will be the transition. Sometime this century I really do think we'll make a transition from the current global paradigm of free market capitalism to... well... something else... This plan seems as good as any I've come across. Now, if only someone could come up with a strategy to get from here to there.


But this is our culture and slowly could be reformed. Also to be precise hunter and gather societies didnt have this concenceptof ownership. When we developed advanced agricutlure is where we started to own things.

I am in favour of the elimination of privite property except for very personal goods,good that you are using and are not indepensible to others,things which gives you very personal memories and are part of yourself, your creations. The rest is all public and free. Thats the world i want.

Anyway last century we saw the creation of many socio-political movments; Implementation of Communism,Fascism,Nazism,Franchism why in this century we cant promote new ideas such as the Venus project which promotes no hatred but equality and welfare.
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Re: I am speaking to the guys of Zeitgeist movement

Postby Italian Ufo on Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:13 am

I also predict that around 2030-2040 we will see the first sign of a resources-based economy, but i hope that this will happen earlier
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Re: I am speaking to the guys of Zeitgeist movement

Postby TreeHandThing on Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:37 pm

Italian Ufo wrote:
TreeHandThing wrote:What is zeitgeist? Some kind of cult?


it depends what is a cult to you. However a cult dosent imply that is something neceserly negative.

I would dedine Zeitgeist a movment


I have no idea what zeitgeist is. Please be more specific
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Re: I am speaking to the guys of Zeitgeist movement

Postby truthiness on Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:05 am

TreeHandThing wrote:
I have no idea what zeitgeist is. Please be more specific


Zeitgeist is a German word that roughly means "the spirit of the times, or the now"... it is also the title of a documentary movie that became a trilogy by a man named Peter Joseph. I've personally seen the first and now the third parts of this trilogy (the third part is what Will posted). The first part of the trilogy, which was just called "Zeitgeist" is essentially an exploration of three conspiracy theories - the first that Jesus Christ is entirely mythical - a representation of the sun not so unlike Apollo or Ra, the second that 9/11 was an inside job perpetrated by the US government, and the third that the US is working toward establishing some sort of shadowy world government or something... Bullocks, in other words.

The second part of the trilogy, which I haven't yet seen, is called "Zeitgeist Addendum", and appears to be fundamentally similar to the third part, which is called "Zeitgeist - Moving Forward". Both of these movies move away from conspiracy theories and push the idea that capitalism is immoral, corrupt, and dangerous, but is also unsustainable and is indeed corroding as we speak. In these parts, Peter Joseph introduces us to another man named Jacque Fresco who is the leader of something called the Venus Project, which advocates doing away with capitalism in favor of a technocratic utopian democracy based around groups of designed cities managed by supercomputers without private property. The activist wing of the Venus Project is now called the Zeitgeist Movement, presumably after the movies that have recently popularized the group.

Is it a cult? I don't think so. They seem to resemble the Marxists of the 1800s at this point - spreading literature and organizing in clubs in various cities around the world, slowly gaining momentum and followers. Does that answer your question?
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Re: I am speaking to the guys of Zeitgeist movement

Postby Worldmind on Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:58 pm

truthiness wrote:I, for one, will throw in with this movement, and when the time comes, you'll find me in the streets - but - one thing I noticed was conspicuously absent in that video was a plan for transition from our current so-called economic model to the resource-based economy. What's the plan? It would need to be both local and global, inclusive from top to bottom, from the north of the world to the south of the world. The haves would need to be made to hand over control of "property" and resources to the have-nots. How are we to make that happen, preferably peacefully? If a peaceful solution is not possible, and I'm not entirely sure that it is (the current situation in Egypt notwithstanding), are there going to be enough of us prepared to fight to break the chains of wage slavery?


Fighting is not necessary. The idea that some have about needing 'fighting' to bring it into reality comes from the idea that the 'powers-that-be' have something to lose, but before the ZM/VP can do what it wants to do the conditions have to change, with the 'powers-that-be' facing the fact that what they have is dissolving away by the natural effect of a dysfunctional system. If they paid attention, they would realize they would be better off in the world the ZM is promoting, because while they would have all the same abilities they now have, minus the slavery of others, they would not have to live in armed camps, which is what a 'gated community' actually is, and worry about someone kidnapping their children for ransom, and, right now, they cannot trust anyone, because everyone lies to them constantly. They cannot, right now, know what is true and what is not, because their money distorts everything.

The only real difference would be that everyone else would have the abilities they have, minus the slaves, and without the destructive aspects of social stratification.

The scientific data is already in existence, that social stratification causes most of the threats they get, and is highly destructive to the population they rely upon for their own standard of living.

The ZM is not about revolution or any of the past methods of change. Since people have never thought about any other ways to do it, they do not know that any other ways exist. When the time comes, the world will have a 'of course' moment and the ZM vision will come into reality, taking a few generations of effort to make it happen. This is not mythical or wishful thinking, it is based upon the discoveries of science already known. For a few such bits of data,

I notice that Will is predicting the collapse of capitalism to occur between 2025 and 2050, with the resource based economy rising up to take its place between 2050 and 2075. When capitalism collapses (and I agree that it inevitably will collapse), how will the resource based economy form from its ashes? Again, this video didn't seem to provide much guidance for building a new economy from the remains of the old one.


If the ideas of the ZM get out, and a critical mass is reached, the ideas will germinate as an option to the existing collapse and the new way of doing things will naturally come into existence, responding to the acceleration of acceleration of scientific/technological discovery. Human nature as presented on TV and in the movies is not the way people actually act in a crisis. Even the 'reality shows' are in actual fact scripted and manipulated to create the kind of conflict the makers want. But I guess we will all see as time goes on. And no plan can be created for that Transition, unfortunately. There will just be way too many variables, any such plan will be thrown out almost immediately.

On a semi-related matter, as it pertains to the eventual collapse of capitalism, do we think that there will be a second oil price shock this year, along the lines of 2008? The global economy is recovering from the recent recession, which means demand for oil will rise, and supply is no longer able to keep up. Prices are going to rise again, leading to a rebound recession I suspect, but will it be this year or next year?


The downward spiral will continue, because it is part of the logic of the money system, which is not a rational logic. As long as money instead of reality defines what people think is possible, the death spiral will continue. No religion ever required the amount of bloody sacrifice of human life as the existing system, and that will, unfortunately, continue. Or so we think. As I said, too many variables to make any reliable predictions.
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Re: I am speaking to the guys of Zeitgeist movement

Postby Italian Ufo on Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:16 am

I think ZM has to come with violence and revolt the social order. I want to make my life as most enjoyble as possible, I cant wait 50 years or even much more. I am tired of this primitive world. Pepole need to become aware of the possible change. Pepole always think that money will be necessery. We live in a close mind world it is so strange.
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